.

But both of you SHOULD agree that it's very healthy to talk about and/or debate this subject.

When I was growing up, and I'm sure most of you were in the same boat, this subject wasn't even up for debate. It was "vaccines saved the planet", and that was that.

Thank GOD this subject is now being talked about and debated by parents and doctors.

It's scary to think that the pharm industry had that much of a monopoly over our health and minds for all those decades.

No longer.........or at least that monopoly is being chipped away.

quote:

Originally posted by 18watt_fan:
.

But both of you SHOULD agree that it's very healthy to talk about and/or debate this subject.

I have no problem with a respectful and healthy debate on any topic. To me, the tone of some of your posts 18 Watt is leaning a little towards the type of bullying that you hate so much when it comes from the government or a doctor?

The vaccination issue is a hot button topic that I have seen play out many times before. It's a very emotional issue for many parents and understandably so - people don't want to endanger their child - whether it be from a vaccine, or from the disease it is designed to protect them from. This is one of those 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' issues in parenting - and I'll reiterate my point again - I think it is very important for people to educate themselves as much as possible, from credible sources and go forward with informed decisions that make sense for their family and their circumstances.

quote:

Originally posted by Albee:

I have no problem with a respectful and healthy debate on any topic. To me, the tone of some of your posts 18 Watt is leaning a little towards the type of bullying that you hate so much when it comes from the government or a doctor? .

___________________________________________________

Awwwwww, come on now.

What have I said, or how have I acted, that can possibly be contrued as "bullying"?

You are correct, this IS a hot-button topic. But just because I have spewed-forth information from the OTHER side of this issue - of which you quite possibly disagree - doesn't necessarily mean my tone is disrespectful in any way, whatsoever.

If I were to wake up a family in the middle of the night because their house was on fire, I probably would have a bit of urgency in my tone.

Disrespectful?.....nahhhhhhh

Concerned to the point of wanting to wake people up?.........yes.

I'm over here jumping up and down trying to get parents to stop using their kids as guinea pigs.

Unfortunately, the information that's provided to us all in the mainstream schooling, doctors and media IS written by, and provided by, the pharmaceutical industry.

They have a vested interest in making profits - even at the expense of our health (gasp). In fact, they won't MAKE profits unless our health is horrible (gasp, how dare I claim they'd be so naughty).

All we are saying is, "whoa Nelly.....let's look at some OTHER views of OTHER doctors".


----------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by Albee:

I think it is very important for people to educate themselves as much as possible, from credible sources and go forward with informed decisions that make sense for their family and their circumstances.

_____________________________________________


I agree, 100%.

.

I understand that you feel passionate about this issue.

You did tell people and I paraphrase: 'don't vaccinate, breastfeed your kids, don't feed them junk food and they won't need a pediatrician'

It's just not as simple as that.

In your cute little cartoons above - you are contradicting your very own arguments. One of the benefits of breastfeeding is that antibodies are passed from mother to baby via the breastmilk - if antibodies do not necessarily mean immunity - why bother?

I have carefully avoided declaring which particular side I fall on in this debate - I just find your arguments to be rather alarmist - but this comes down to my subjective view and so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the approach

quote:

Originally posted by Albee:



You did tell people and I paraphrase: 'don't vaccinate, breastfeed your kids, don't feed them junk food and they won't need a pediatrician'

It's just not as simple as that.

---------------------------------------------


But it's what should be strived for.

I elaborate more on this below.


___________________________________________________

quote:

Originally posted by Albee:

In your cute little cartoons above - you are contradicting your very own arguments. One of the benefits of breastfeeding is that antibodies are passed from mother to baby via the breastmilk - if antibodies do not necessarily mean immunity - why bother?

You bring up an excellent point, and I will research this a bit more today because I don't claim to be an expert on the workings/terminology of how immunity gets passed on through breastfeeding. But you are correct in that you don't HAVE to breastfeed in order to have a strong immune system, although it is optimal and should be strived for. On the other hand, if you cannot breastfeed, there should be a reasonable substitute used instead of Similac or some other man-made cocoction of chemicals, sugar and GMO foods.

I would have to say that, on the surface, I guarantee you that the immunity that moms pass on to babies is FAR more potent than having some white coat dump aluminum, mercury, aborted-fetus material, dangerous viruses, altered DNA, etc, direct into our childrens' bloodstreams, bypassing the proper channels of defense of which God Designed/Built in to our systems.

But here's a story of orphans who had to drink goats milk, but they also were not vaccinated and ate VERY nutritiously:

THE HOPEWOOD CHILDREN - AUSTRALIA'S HEALTHIEST KIDS

.

There is so much material I can post regarding breastfeeding, and how there is NO substitue that can come close.

Excerpt from the following link:

quote:

The infant immune system evolves from the gut, and intestinal integrity determines whether the baby's immune function will be weak or strong. The most critical immune protection arises from the foundation laid down by breastfeeding -- a foundation that cannot be derived from any source other than mother's milk.

Dr. Derrick B. Jelliffe, MD, describes colostrum and breast milk as an "antiseptic intestinal paint," protecting intestinal epithelial surfaces until the infant's own immune mechanisms mature. He explains that "the proven effect of sIgA [secretory Immuneglobulin A] appears to be enteral, including as a mucosal protection, particularly against the dominant pathological bacteria in the newborn........

i know a mom who couldn't breast feed and they couldn't afford powder baby formula. they lived on a farm. so she bought a bag of powder calfs milk. let me tell you that is the healthiest baby i have ever seen!!!

quote:

Originally posted by greatfulcp:

i know a mom who couldn't breast feed and they couldn't afford powder baby formula. they lived on a farm. so she bought a bag of powder calfs milk. let me tell you that is the healthiest baby i have ever seen!!!

Yes, and surely a much better route than the Similac poison.

I know I'm going to step on some toes here, but using Similac is just pure laziness when you can use other options that are more natural.....WHEN you can't breastfeed.

OK - at the risk of stepping on toes myself or crossing a line (and if I do, I apologize Shawn and will deal with whatever repurcussions arise) -

My understanding from these posts are that you are not a mother yourself - you're a father. I appreciate your concern and your involvement, however I for one am tired of your condescending and yes, bullying attitude on here. For you to present information on "the other side" of this argument is one thing.

For you to get on here and presume to tell the mothers how they should raise their children and what they should do or think is entirely another.

I used Similac with my daughter after I couldn't breastfeed her. And for you to call me lazy for that is ignorant, presumptuous and rude.

YEAHHHH littleT !!!!
you go girl i did too!!!!

I think that, at least for me, as a first time mother I have to have faith that my daughter's Pediatrician has her best interests in mind as well. We have had discussions about the vaccinations and the risks, etc.

I agree there are risks and I wish everyone was as interested in learning facts as 18watt_fan ... you are irritating, but your passion for the subject is commended. And, it's nice to see a father this involved in these topics. BUT, your facts, anyone's facts, are as good as their source. And as someone mentioned you can find supporting documents no matter what side of the issue you are on.

Our Pediatricians also guide us as to what to use when we can no longer breastfeed as well. You research and ask your doctor questions and based on the baby's needs you decide the best route. Cost is also a "real world" factor on what we use as well.

I agree that sanitary conditions are an issue, but if someone sneezes on me with a contagious air-borne disease the cleanliness of our environment or water isn't going to make much difference.

I think that getting someone riled up to do the research is a wonderful thing, but eventually we are all going to have to come to the consensus that this is a personal decision and until they outlaw these horrible, demon immunizations we will have to make the choice for our own individual families.

.

Hey now .........

It's just constructive criticism.

Aren't you all sick of having yes-men and yes-women in your lives who only tell you what you WANT to hear instead of what you NEED to hear?

Sure my opinions are semi-harsh sometimes, but perhaps it could be information you could use someday.

If not, just ignore me........or don't take it personal.

Hey, I even get lazy about issues with raising my kids.

For instance:

Sometimes I tell my kids: "Come on. We gotta go inside."

That's HORRIBLE grammar, but I catch myself being lazy about it all the time.

If some of you were around me and caught me talking like that and pointed it out, I'd be in agreement and thank you for keeping me on track. I wouldn't take it as judgemental or rude.

What's so wrong with speaking up about issues, even if it steps on toes at times? I think that's how things have gotten so crazy in the world (yes, I know the world has always been crazy) - especially as of late - because everyone seems to just go-along-to-get-along without trying to correct the ills of the world.

Again, I'll say it:

Similac = evil.

That's fine if you disagree, but I stand by that comment.

Would I feed it to my child if I was stranded on Similac Island?.....oh yes, I would......but we aren't.

And someone brought up cost.

Sell the bass boat and cancel your cable subscription. Kids are worth more than our luxuries and toys.

My turn.


Ladies, I know most of you are riled by this post and person especially at this point. Most people that post "baiting" subjects look for that very reaction.

Please, be nice I don't want to suspend anyone

Mr. 18watt-fan, I have noticed your posts. I think you are having fun here at PolkMoms whether you feel that you are here mischievously or on what you perceive as a goodwill mission, you are here none the less.

A few moms have questioned your motives here. My response to them is that it is obvious that women are fascinating creatures. For you, I would think of the analogy, a fly to a light source. You must not be able to help yourself.

Although PolkMoms is a Ledger website this is a whole entirely different ball game than The Ledger online forums. The Ledger forums are amusing and informative with a heavy dose of curt in the in-between. That is not what I or The Ledger want here at PolkMoms. It is designed to be an active friendly community of MOTHERS to gather with experiences and friendships.

Directed at your post, give me advice 18watt_fan. What was I to do when it came to breastfeeding my children? Don't get me wrong, I am a breastfeeding advocate, but some moms, like me could/can not.

We have a breastfeeding thread on PolkMoms. It is herehttp://talk.polkmoms.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6821058796/m/3061049707

If you look in that thread there is a link for Centers for Disease Control. I will include it here
http://www.cdc.gov/breastfeeding/

Yes it is a government website, possibly losing credibility for you?

The site includes a list of when not to breastfeed. I will include the list here

http://www.cdc.gov/breastfeeding/disease/contraindicators.htm

Still with me?

Did you see it? Did you see you shouldn't breastfeed if your children have galactosemia?

Well my children do. I couldn’t breastfeed.

Galactosemia is a metabolic disorder that makes one born without enzymes to break down galactose and lactose in ANY type of milk product, which includes breast milk. If you breast feed or milk formula feed a child with galactosemia - protein builds up in their body unable to be digested (lack of the enzyme) and the child then goes into liver and kidney failure and dies.

Insert your advice here please.

quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Arnold:


Ladies, I know most of you are riled by this post and person especially at this point. Most people that post "baiting" subjects look for that very reaction.



Baiting subjects?

So if someone has differing views on vaccination than you, they are somehow engaging in "baiting"?

Even if I came on here and posted nothing but links, there would be those who would accuse me of being "rude" or "baiting" even if I withheld my personal opinions on the subject.

The fact is, vaccination (or being against vaccination) is more controversial than politics or religion.

But my purpose here is not to "bait" or to be "rude". My purpose is to supply alternate information than what most people have been fed in the mainstream avenues-of-information their entire lives.

When persons hear something different than what they've been taught their whole lives, the first reaction they have is that of anger and/or disbelief.

This phenomenon is known as 'cognitive dissonance'

(from wikipedia):


Cognitive dissonance is a psychological state that describes the uncomfortable feeling when a person begins to understand that something the person believes to be true is, in fact, not true. Similar to ambivalence, the term cognitive dissonance describes conflicting thoughts or beliefs (cognitions) that occur at the same time, or when engaged in behaviors that conflict with one's beliefs. In academic literature, the term refers to attempts to reduce the discomfort of conflicting thoughts, by performing actions that are opposite to one's beliefs.

In simple terms, it can be the filtering of information that conflicts with what one already believes, in an effort to ignore that information and reinforce one's beliefs.



---------------------------------------------------------


quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Arnold:

Mr. 18watt-fan, I have noticed your posts.



That means I'm doing a good job.

I'll take that as a compliment.

--------------------------------------------------------


quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Arnold:

I think you are having fun here at PolkMoms whether you feel that you are here mischievously or on what you perceive as a goodwill mission, you are here none the less.


So, for instance, when I post information as to how to opt-out of vaccinations, you think that's just me "having fun" or being "mischievous"?

You all should be thrilled that I'm providing vital information (vaccine exemption forms) of which the deceptive government/schools are NOT providing for you. They are, in fact, lying to you by withholding this critical info.

Now how "rude" and "mischievous" is THEIR neglect of your rights-as-parent?

And afterall, aren't you pro-CHOICE?

Don't you all want CHOICE when it comes to the health of YOUR body and your child's body?


-------------------------------------------------------


quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Arnold:

A few moms have questioned your motives here. My response to them is that it is obvious that women are fascinating creatures. .


You mean like my wife?

And my sister-n-law?

BOTH (even I, three years ago) were fully FOR vaccinating kids.

Thanks to my brother who tipped me off that they were going to try to force the Hep B vaccine on my first son at-birth, I started doing research (rather than watch NASCAR or NFL) into what are the pros-and-cons of this vaccine and all other vaccines. At first, I experienced the usual cognitive dissonance. Then I swallowed my pride and accepted the fact that I've been "had" my entire life by the schools/doctors/pharm industry.

So then my wife had to be convinced. She met me with the same amount of cognitive dissonance that some of you are experiencing. Then, after some time studying, she had to admit everything she believed about vaccines, etc, was pretty much a bunch of propaganda put out by the very same industry who controls the FDA, the CDC, the media, the schools, etc.............that being the pharmaceutical industry.

It's a good-ol'-boy network of conflicts-of-interest of which this country is suffering heavily.

My sis-n-law is about to have a baby at Lakeland Regional in August, and she is prepared to meet the doctors/nurses with all the proper opt-out forms and info so they won't give her baby Hep B or Vitamin K shots. I warned her that they are going to treat her like an ignorant-abuser, and possibly even call CPS into the room - but she is strong and will hold her ground, because it is HER right, HER choice, and the law is on her side.

So yes, women are fascinating creatures.

I have two who are very close to me who have been woken up. They are intelligent, strong and will hold their ground if anyone tries to harm their children.


------------------------------------------------------


quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Arnold:

Yes it is a government website, possibly losing credibility for you?



Admittedly, yes. Overall.

I don't trust the FDA.

I don't trust the CDC

I don't trust ANY unconstitutional federal agency whose main gig is to be a front for the major pharmaceutical industries.

We can go back-and-forth regarding the details why I feel that way, but I'll wait until you ask. I'm kind that way.

----------------------------------------------



quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Arnold:

Did you see it? Did you see you shouldn't breastfeed if your children have galactosemia?

Well my children do. I couldn’t breastfeed.



I'm very sorry to hear about that.

It is a rare genetic disease of which most mothers would not be confronted.

I'm sure there are natural alternatives besides Similac or pharmaceuticals to treat such an issue, however.

But again, breastfeeding is something of which we all should aspire. It's kind of like marriage. If a marriage counselor tries to help a couple who are having problems, he's not being "rude" or "mischievous". He's trying to keep the couple together because it's something of which ALL married couples should aspire...............Unfortunatley, it's not always possible.

In closing, let me quote what you say at the "About Us" page of these forums:


Expect topics to be raised which elicit strong opinions - topics such as sex, beliefs, religion and child-rearing. If a topic makes you uncomfortable, simply avoid it and do not post there.


However, if it is your wish that I make myself scarce in these forums, I will kindly accept.

My purpose here, although controversial at times, is NOT to cause trouble, but to provide extremely important information so parents can make proper choices.